Talk:Ko Lan

Spelling

"common spelling" for whom? That "R" there is now getting obsolete. The Royal Thai Navy, whose charts I used for the article uses the Royal Thai General System of Transcription.Xufanc (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi everyone, so how about getting involved in some discussion instead of WP:edit warring? We all seem to have different interpretations of what is accepted as the "standard" or "most common" spelling. The problem is, there is none. In this case, however, I don't think "Ko Larn" has a strong argument to support it. A quick Google search for "Ko Lan" -wikipedia returns 88,700 results versus 10,900 for "Ko Larn" -wikipedia.

However, I would like us to really get somewhere in understanding each other's positions. Rak-Tai, I've seen from your post at the reference desk how you disagreed with and felt rather offended by comments previously made on the Pattaya talk page, but I don't think it is anyone's intention to intimidate or attack fellow editors, so please don't take it personally. Regarding spelling issue, as I previously said, the problem is that there is usually no unequivocally accepted standard spelling. Government documents will almost always follow the RTGS, which lends some "official" credibility to it. Other sources may use a myriad of spellings, which doesn't help us in consistency and standardisation. Rak-Tai's home street may be spelled as Pratumnak, but also Pratamnak, Pratumnuk, Phratamnak, Phratumnak, Phratumnuk and so on. The Pratumnak spelling also does not help the reader understand what the actual Thai name is supposed to be. I initially thought it was ประทุมนาก, which is vastly different from พระตำหนัก, which is somewhat more guessable from the RTGS spelling. I find it hard to believe that everyone in Pattaya except the city government would spell the street name as Pratumnak (and it does not indeed appear to be the case. Even the Bangkok Post and the Nation don't consistently follow a standard spelling scheme, sometimes spelling names of individual persons differently in different articles, so I don't think usage by local newspapers should be cited.

The way it is now, there are very few cases where an alternate spelling different from the RTGS is accepted as overwhelmingly common. Pattaya and Sukhumvit are examples. Jomtien Beach, I think, is another, since very few people would recognise the spelling Chom Thian. Names of private properties should of course follow their owners' preferred spelling, but the government's preferred usage should naturally have a say in the spelling of public street and place names. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 01:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Please check Google again--you seem to be using a different Google then I (Ko Lan--90,400, Ko Larn, 107,00.) Visit the main site, http://kohlarn.com/. When is the last time you traveled to Ko Larn from Bali Hai pier? Every single boat will take you to Ko Larn. If you technically insist on the name Ko Lan you will miss the boat! So I continue to insist on the accepted local spelling, Ko Larn. Sorry if you have a different opinion, which I respect. But it is incorrect. รัก-ไทย (talk) 07:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Rak-tai, the information about Google you give is false. Paul_012 is right. Besides, and more importantly, the "r" sound is only acceptable for native English speakers. Most of us non-native English speakers in the world are misled by that "R". Also in the Thai language there is no "ร" there. I have sailed many times to Ko Lan and I have created the article and before undoing the edits again, please submit your interpretations to an open discussion. Otherwise I shall denounce you for vandalism.Xufanc (talk) 07:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are two article from Thai newspapers to confirm my change: Pattaya Mail SportsWhen entrepreneur John Stall designed the Koh Larn Classic, it became the ... Fortunately, the Koh Larn Classic is much more “user-friendly” than either of ... www.pattayamail.com/396/sports.htm - Similar

Pattaya Mail - Vol. XVIII No. 6 - Friday February 5 - February 11 ...Jump to Koh Larn officials prepare to set out more buoys to avoid another ...‎: A budget to purchase permanent buoys for Koh Larn and Koh Sak has ... www.pattayamail.com/current/news.shtml - Similar

From Bangkok Post: Tourist dies in boat mishap Published: 12/01/2010 at 12:00 AM Newspaper section: News

CHON BURI : A Russian tourist has been slashed to death by a speed boat propeller off Koh Larn, near Pattaya in Bang Lamung district, police say.

The body of Oleg Poliakov, 40, was found yesterday about 300 metres from the small island resort. The victim had severe wounds to his stomach and his left leg had nearly been severed.

Officers later arrested a boat driver, identified as 47-year-old Rithirong Panthula. The Bang Lamung resident ferries tourists between Koh Larn and Pattaya on the mainland.

These two references confirm my selection as to the prefered English spelling. Please send a letter to their editors and argue with them--that is their selection. รัก-ไทย (talk) 08:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Two articles from the Bangkok Post are not enough in my opinion. Please wait until there is a consensus before redirecting again and before insisting in edit warring. I assure you that at the time of creating the article last year, I considered both options carefully. It is necessary to build up a better case regarding why at this point your personal opinion should be given precedence instead of merely disregarding the reasons I have put forth.Xufanc (talk) 08:30, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion requested

1. This article was originally named Ko Lan. Many names are extremely difficult to translate from Thai script. I have tried to follow the WP rule of finding the commonly-used English term. In this case, the island website, as well as the ferries that operate to the island, and the leading Bangkok newspapers, the Bangkok Post and the Nation, as well as the local newspaper, Pattaya Mail, use the spelling, Ko Larn. I do not want to fight a revert war, but another editor insists on reverting my reasoned change. Pregvious debates are listed below รัก-ไทย (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Note from the creator of the article

I created the article in October 2008 including both names in the text. At that time, and before deciding the name, I asked educated Thai people their opinion and was told that priority should be given to the name of the island according to the Royal Thai General System of Transcription. According to the Thai University teachers, old spellings are to be slowly replaced by the Royal System. User:Rak-Tai/รัก-ไทย above (he shifted to the Thai spelling in between) is not a Thai, but fanatically favors the English-phonetics based spelling, so much so that he reverted my edits and the edits of another user, without consideration and without asking from me any previous explanation. Xufanc (talk) 15:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

As a note to everyone involved, please keep cool, be WP:CIVIL and be constructive in those edits. If these move-reversion continues, I may have to file for page move protection. Please also keep in mind the three-revert rule, which Rak-Tai has already broken ans Xufanc on the border. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 17:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding Rak-Tai's examples above, I don't believe the newspaper cites are valid as neither the Bangkok Post, the Nation nor Pattaya Daily News consistently follows a single spelling. Ko Lan, Ko Larn, Koh Lan and Koh Larn are all used. Neither is kohlarn.com an authoritative source on the spelling, since they don't own the island. I also question Rak-Tai's rationale of moving to Ko Larn instead of Koh Larn, which seems to be what he is actually arguing for.

To reiterate my position, I believe that a spelling can be shown to be the most common accepted spelling if it is clear that almost absolutely everyone spells the name that way. In this case, it is clear that there are many ways the name is spelled, so if the proposed guidelines at WP:MOSTHAI are to be followed, RTGS should probably be used (although note that the page is still a proposal and not an established guideline).

Also, since this discussion already involves more than two editors, I am going to remove the third opinion request and file for RFC instead. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 18:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Fully agrees with Paul and Xufanc, the article should be at Ko Lan. There is a standard for the transcription, and only because so many choose not to follow it (yet) does not mean we should have the same transcription chaos here as well. Street signs in Thailand now almost always follow RTGS (e.g. Don Muang became Don Mueang), other government official publication use it as well, so RTGS will be the sole standard in some years. No problem with adding the common alternative/old transcription in the lead sentence, but no for the article name itself. andy (talk) 20:11, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Spelling of Ko Lan/Ko Larn

There is a dispute on whether the name of the article should follow the spelling Ko Lan following the Royal Thai General System of Transcription, which is the official system used by the government, or Ko Larn, which has been argued to be the more common usage. —Paul_012 (via posting script) 18:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

This sort of thing is a pretty straightforward, fairly common question that is brought up at Wikipedia:Requested moves on a regular basis. Ultimately, the answer is "neither", for now, unless and until one form of the name or another gains broader coverage/acceptance. That the page is currently located at Ko Lan is perfectly acceptable, as long as there is a redirect from Ko Larn and/or any other form of the name, and said alternative names are prominently mentioned in the lead. If there is significant discussion about the issue (outside of Wikipedia!), then including a section or some content about the dispute itself (with references!) is usually a good idea as well. As for this article in particular, at this particular point in time, the situation is perfectly fine as is. Titles are actually important, but when you get to the point of arguing over two generally accepted forms of the same name then it's time to quit arguing.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 09:56, 20 February 2010 (UTC)